how much should you put up with?
Posted on September 3, 2007 by Geoff Matheson
Filed Under Church
About a year ago I was chatting with a pastor from interstate, and chatting about his church. He was describing the way that his church had been planted as a result of a difference in theological approach. Apparently the group left on good terms, and it sounds like the whole situation went as well as could be expected, but it planted a thought which has bugged me incessantly ever since: what theological concepts do I hold to tightly enough that I could no longer be a part of a church who disagreed with that principle? I mean, I’ve got some pretty key simple ones:
- Divinity of Jesus
- Salvation through God’s grace
- God as creator of the world (at least somehow)
- etc.
But after those, there are a few things I’m not sure I’d put up with in my faith community: some big, fat obvious ones being stuff like speaking in tongues or baptism as a condition of salvation and financial riches as an indicator of faith. Overall, I think that at least puts me in a relatively accepting place.
I guess the bigger underlying question is this: to what extent should you stay in a church whose theological direction you disagree with? I must admit that at the moment this question is purely theoretical: I don’t have any big points of difference at all with the theology espoused in my church, but I’m intrigued to hear whether that line would be. Have you ever left a church because of a disagreement on theology? Or are there people who have stayed in a church they felt called to despite being in conflict with the ideas being preached? Let me know.
About Geoff Matheson
Geoff is a 23 year old database administrator who has birthed amateurtheology.org from some crazy thoughts he had early one Monday morning. Geoff does his best to sound lots smarter than he actually is. He also runs some youth stuff at Yarra Valley Vineyard, and he is married to the very lovely Rebecca.
Geoff's site: http://www.geoffreport.com/wp/
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7 Responses to “how much should you put up with?”
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I’ve never left a church I had theological issue with because I think I’ve done a good job of filtering before becoming a fixture there.
I’ve stayed in a church that I had theological issues with. I had several significant issues with the theology of the denomination but the local expression was not practicing any of that. Since the community closest matched what I was looking for, I stayed. In that case, the key theological point that the local body held which didn’t align with mine was paedobaptism. I am well past the years that this effects so I opted to stay. When I taught a course for youth that included that I told the leadership I could not teach that portion per their doctrine. They understood and provided a substitute for that piece.
I guess guidelines I use are how significant is the difference, how hostile is the environment toward those that don’t align, and how directly will it impact me.
For example, I am a complimentarian. By definition, I cannot submit to direct female leadership so if a community practiced egalitarianism, I visit and benefit, but I couldn’t commit to the community.
I am currently committed a community that teaches tithing. I don’t agree with the details of the teaching but it isn’t critical and I can always give more. They also tell visitors each Sunday to not concern themselves with giving. Some think that is cool. I think it teaches to not give. Either way, the disagreement hits me every week but I personally do not need to agree and it is not “critical” to me.
I hope that provides some examples on how I’ve managed.
Yes, thanks Rick.
Tracking a bit further from Geoff’s comments, your statement:
I would be interested to know if you felt that the leadership has treated you differently since not teaching the paedobaptism? It may not be active hostility, but have you had subsequent opportunities to teach etc?
In that situation I noticed no difference. Whether real or not, I thought they actually respected that I took some kind of a stand while maintaining humility, etc..
I was only in that community for two years. In that I taught classes for Adult Sunday School, small group leaders, youth confirmation classes, etc.. I also led a small group and coached a couple of the other group leaders.
What I don’t know is if I wanted to become part of the formal leadership how this particular point would have effected me. At that community, unlike others before and since, I never felt called to do more so it never came up as an issue and at the ‘level’ of involvement I had, the leaders treated me great.
I think this is about pride, submission and personal responsibility. It’s a curly one.
Yes, kudos to Rick and the church for making use of a willing participant’s gifts in a particular area. There’s some grace and a sense of scale at work there.
I think often parties on both sides of this debate can engage in ultimatum-tossing to the overall detriment of the body.
God’s holiness says deviation from His laws for us is unacceptable, but His heart for us doesn’t change: in the end that drives His behaviour towards us.
Can I suggest the bigger issue is: what’s your heart for the body?
I think those who actively CARE about minor doctrinal differences are a small percentage of any given population. Most people I meet just want the church to accept them, show them God’s love/heart and get on with doing it all over again with others.
We risk doing more eternal damage handling disputes on minor doctrine badly amongst the general congregation than by getting it ‘wrong’: I think as soon as you’re not submitted to leadership you need to leave.
You find me an organised group of people in the Bible without an authoritative leader: your local church is first God’s, next the leader’s and third the congregation’s, and I don’t have a problem with that.
I’ve been part of a baptist split. Not nice. Didn’t feel God through it.
In the end, what’s the bigger issue for God: leadership/submission/care/love/respect for people or practicing religion correctly?
Well, I’m sure that I have dealt with all of the issues involved with this and have forgiven those who I needed to forgive, and it has been a long time (16 years now), so I think it is safe to write.
Back in what seems like an earlier life, my young family and I were in a church in a smallish country town - the denomination is not relevant. Up to this point in time, I had largely been ignorant of the gifts of the holy spirit. My wife and I were involved in assisting to run a youth group, and I was in fact on the elder’s council of the church, despite being at least 20 years younger than anyone else on this inflated body, and a relatively new christian.
Together with another couple, the leaders of the youth group, we had some responsibility for running monthly youth services on Sunday evenings. We made several mistakes, one was to include an ‘altar call’ for people who wanted to commit their lives to Jesus, and the other was to have someone speak about the gifts of the spirit as something that was real and to be aprehended in this age. To be summoned to the regional overseer (no titles to give denominational hints) and told that perhaps we would be better off in the local Baptist church (there you go, it wasn’t them) sort of put the writing on the wall for us, particularly as there wasn’t a local Baptist church.
So I guess for me, being unable to challenge people about their need for Jesus and having ‘fellow elders’ and lay preachers (with the pastor’s agreement) say when looking at the scripture passages about spiritual gifts that they hoped never to see any of that in their church was enough for me to move on. Fortunately, we found somewhere better than the non existant ‘local baptist church’
[...] our first foray into some proper discussion on Amateur Theology, we threw around the idea of at what point of theological disagreement should you leave a church, [...]